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Wanderer
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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I'm trying to determine the veracity of a claim made by Ray Peat on his site,
raypeat.com. Here is the claim:
"With just a normal amount of vitamin E in the diet, cod liver oil is certain
to be highly oxidized in the tissues of a mammal that eats a lot of it, and
an experiment with dogs showed that it could increase their cancer mortality
from the normal 5% to 100%."
I cannot find any online reference to the "experiment with dogs that showed
that it (cod liver oil) could increase their cancer mortality from the normal
5% to 100%."
I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of his
insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can provide a link to
any study that supports this statement regarding cod liver oil and canine
cancer mortality.
I'm literally trying to determine whether cod liver oil is something that
should, or should not, be included in my diet.
Thanks for your help.
Wanderer |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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It's a matter of degree, but I don't see good evidence for any real
"benefit" from it, because there are much safer alternatives.
Assuming you are in good health, if you stuck a pin in some cod liver
oil, and just took that amount each day, your body could deal with
it. If you took a few fish oil pills a day, I'd be very concerned.
Somewhere in the middle is the danger threshold, but as I said, why
bother? What do you think you need it for? You might want to take a
look on my free site, because examine some of the old evidence (which
was available over the internet:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
(it's biochemistry at the most basic level possible, and there is no
good contradictory evidence). I've been challenging fish oil
supplement advocates to repeat this kind of experiment, with the
"loser" to pay all expenses, but nobody has shown the slightest
interest in doing this. My guess is that at least some of these
advocates have conflicts of interest in some way, whereas I'm an
independent scholar who once took omega 3 supplements. After I
decided to examine the evidence closely (instead of relying on "expert
opinion"), I realized what a huge mistake I was making. Denham Harman
was the first to talk about the dangers of free radicals, so you might
want to look into his research as well. |
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ironjustice
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Feb 28, 3:40 pm, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote: "With just
a normal amount of vitamin E in the diet, cod liver oil is certain to
be highly oxidized in the tissues of a mammal that eats a lot of it,
and
an experiment with dogs showed that it could increase their cancer
mortality
from the normal 5% to 100%." <<
Theoretically it is possible .. due to the increased oxidative stress.
"Susceptibility of LDL to oxidation was higher after EPA+DHA
intervention than after the ALA interventions"
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 77, No. 4, 783-795, April
2003
(c) 2003 American Society for Clinical Nutrition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Research Communication
Plant- and marine-derived n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids have
differential effects on fasting and postprandial blood lipid
concentrations and on the susceptibility of LDL to oxidative
modification in moderately hyperlipidemic subjects1,2,3
Yvonne E Finnegan, Anne M Minihane, Elizabeth C Leigh-Firbank,
Samantha Kew, Gert W Meijer, Reto Muggli, Philip C Calder and
Christine M Williams
1 From the Hugh Sinclair Unit of Human Nutrition, School of Food
Biosciences, University of Reading, Reading, United Kingdom (YEF, AMM,
ECL-F, and CMW); the Institute of Human Nutrition, School of Medicine,
University of Southampton, Southampton, United Kingdom (SK and PCC);
the Unilever Health Institute, Unilever R&D Vlaardingen, Vlaardingen,
Netherlands (GWM); and Roche Vitamins Ltd, Basel, Switzerland (RM).
Background: Dietary -linolenic acid (ALA) can be converted to long-
chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in humans and may
reproduce some of the beneficial effects of eicosapentaenoic acid
(EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) on cardiovascular disease risk
factors.
Objective: This study aimed to compare the effects of increased
dietary intakes of ALA and EPA+DHA on a range of atherogenic risk
factors.
Design: This was a placebo-controlled, parallel study involving 150
moderately hyperlipidemic subjects randomly assigned to 1 of 5
interventions: 0.8 or 1.7 g EPA+DHA/d, 4.5 or 9.5 g ALA/d, or an n-6
PUFA control for 6 mo. Fatty acids were incorporated into 25 g of fat
spread and 3 capsules to be consumed daily.
Results: The change in fasting or postprandial lipid, glucose, or
insulin concentrations or in blood pressure was not significantly
different after any of the n-3 PUFA interventions compared with the
n-6 PUFA control. The mean (± SEM) change in fasting triacylglycerols
after the 1.7-g/d EPA+DHA intervention (-7.7 ± 4.99%) was
significantly (P < 0.05) different from the change after the 9.5-g/d
ALA intervention (10.9 ± 4.5%). The ex vivo susceptibility of LDL to
oxidation was higher after the 1.7-g/d EPA+DHA intervention than after
the control and ALA interventions (P < 0.05). There was no significant
change in plasma -tocopherol concentrations or in whole plasma
antioxidant status in any of the groups.
Conclusion: At estimated biologically equivalent intakes, dietary ALA
and EPA+DHA have different physiologic effects.
Key Words: -Linolenic acid * eicosapentaenoic acid * docosahexaenoic
acid * polyunsaturated fatty acids * n-3 fatty acids * lipids * plasma
fatty acid * LDL oxidation * moderately hyperlipidemic subjects *
triacylglycerol
Who loves ya.
Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
| Quote: | I'm trying to determine the veracity of a claim made by Ray Peat on his site,
raypeat.com. Here is the claim:
"With just a normal amount of vitamin E in the diet, cod liver oil is certain
to be highly oxidized in the tissues of a mammal that eats a lot of it, and
an experiment with dogs showed that it could increase their cancer mortality
from the normal 5% to 100%."
I cannot find any online reference to the "experiment with dogs that showed
that it (cod liver oil) could increase their cancer mortality from the normal
5% to 100%."
I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of his
insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can provide a link to
any study that supports this statement regarding cod liver oil and canine
cancer mortality.
I'm literally trying to determine whether cod liver oil is something that
should, or should not, be included in my diet.
Thanks for your help.
Wanderer |
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Ron Peterson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Feb 28, 5:40 pm, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm literally trying to determine whether cod liver oil is something that
should, or should not, be included in my diet.
|
There are better alternatives. Cod liver oil is high in vitamin A to
the point of being toxic. Get your vitamin D from other sources.
--
Ron |
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Wanderer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:31:42 -0500, monty1945@lycos.com wrote
(in article
<69f6e391-c740-416d-9e27-82e947eb76ce@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
| Quote: | It's a matter of degree, but I don't see good evidence for any real
"benefit" from it, because there are much safer alternatives.
Assuming you are in good health, if you stuck a pin in some cod liver
oil, and just took that amount each day, your body could deal with
it. If you took a few fish oil pills a day, I'd be very concerned.
Somewhere in the middle is the danger threshold, but as I said, why
bother? What do you think you need it for? You might want to take a
look on my free site, because examine some of the old evidence (which
was available over the internet:
http://groups.msn.com/TheScientificDebateForum-/
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
(it's biochemistry at the most basic level possible, and there is no
good contradictory evidence). I've been challenging fish oil
supplement advocates to repeat this kind of experiment, with the
"loser" to pay all expenses, but nobody has shown the slightest
interest in doing this. My guess is that at least some of these
advocates have conflicts of interest in some way, whereas I'm an
independent scholar who once took omega 3 supplements. After I
decided to examine the evidence closely (instead of relying on "expert
opinion"), I realized what a huge mistake I was making. Denham Harman
was the first to talk about the dangers of free radicals, so you might
want to look into his research as well.
|
Thanks very much for your response and supporting research. I appreciate your
help. |
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Wanderer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:14:18 -0500, ironjustice wrote
(in article
<a380cebd-51ba-4c6d-84af-11b6b71cb82b@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
| Quote: | On Feb 28, 3:40 pm, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote: "With just
a normal amount of vitamin E in the diet, cod liver oil is certain to
be highly oxidized in the tissues of a mammal that eats a lot of it,
and
an experiment with dogs showed that it could increase their cancer
mortality
from the normal 5% to 100%."
Theoretically it is possible .. due to the increased oxidative stress.
"Susceptibility of LDL to oxidation was higher after EPA+DHA
intervention than after the ALA interventions"
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 77, No. 4, 783-795, April
2003
(c) 2003 American Society for Clinical Nutrition
|
Many thanks for providing the results of this study. I really appreciate your
taking the time to enlighten me. |
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Wanderer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:39:21 -0500, Ron Peterson wrote
(in article
<e16b2467-837c-4f91-ad26-3e735ff9e232@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>):
| Quote: | On Feb 28, 5:40 pm, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm literally trying to determine whether cod liver oil is something that
should, or should not, be included in my diet.
There are better alternatives. Cod liver oil is high in vitamin A to
the point of being toxic. Get your vitamin D from other sources.
--
Ron
|
Thanks for your suggestion, Ron. What supplements do you recommend for
vitamin A and/or vitamin D? (That is, if you recommend any supplements.) I've
noticed that many of the available supplements contain stearic acid, which
according to what I have been reading lately, has an immune suppressive
effect. And the best food source of vitamin D seems to be oily fish, which
brings us back to square one.I would be very grateful for your comments. |
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DZ
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
| Quote: | I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of
his insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can
provide a link to any study that supports this statement regarding
cod liver oil and canine cancer mortality.
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
....
I'm an independent scholar
|
It seems that you don't have the refercence. A scholar studying a
problem would ask Ray Peat for the reference to the study. Why don't
you? After all, you repeatedly refer to this study. |
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Taka
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Mar 1, 2:05 am, DZ <3...@309863296.2413615863.26934.10335.7655>
wrote:
| Quote: | monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of
his insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can
provide a link to any study that supports this statement regarding
cod liver oil and canine cancer mortality.
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
...
I'm an independent scholar
It seems that you don't have the refercence. A scholar studying a
problem would ask Ray Peat for the reference to the study. Why don't
you? After all, you repeatedly refer to this study.
|
Once I tried to track down that study and ended up with some old
reference without abstract or full text and it was some sort of a
meeting/party speech record only. Same as with the 1940 EFAD
refutation studies. I admit that but this doesn't automatically mean
that the Ray Peat's ideas are wrong. The fish oil/EFA camp has no
clear evidence either! I would be very happy if someone can prove me
wrong with clear experimental evidence showing the long term benefits
of EFA supplementation (not any review article/questionare statistics
or guideline or government policy please).
Taka
P.S.: By EFA or EFAD I mean the Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids, not
the Omega-9 Mead acid in this case |
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Ron Peterson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Feb 29, 5:43 am, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for your suggestion, Ron. What supplements do you recommend for
vitamin A and/or vitamin D? (That is, if you recommend any supplements.) I've
noticed that many of the available supplements contain stearic acid, which
according to what I have been reading lately, has an immune suppressive
effect. And the best food source of vitamin D seems to be oily fish, which
brings us back to square one.I would be very grateful for your comments.
|
I am currently taking a 2400 IU vitamin D gelatin capsule. I don't
take vitamin A, but do eat carrots which contain carotene which is a
safe way to get vitamin A. A teaspoon of cod liver oil has about 100%
of the vitamin A RDA, so it is safe in that amount. Fish isn't the
source of vitamin D3 supplements, since it can be produced more
economically artificially.
Stearic acid is a saturated fatty acid and is a sizeable portion of
many diets and so the small amounts in supplements is not likely to be
significant problem.
--
Ron |
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DZ
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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Taka <taka0038@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | DZ wrote:
monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of
his insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can
provide a link to any study that supports this statement regarding
cod liver oil and canine cancer mortality.
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
...
I'm an independent scholar
It seems that you don't have the refercence. A scholar studying a
problem would ask Ray Peat for the reference to the study. Why don't
you? After all, you repeatedly refer to this study.
Once I tried to track down that study and ended up with some old
reference without abstract or full text and it was some sort of a
meeting/party speech record only.
|
Actually, I have a full text, scanned copy of this speech
(by Sinclair). There is no mentioning of dogs in it. |
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Taka
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Mar 1, 12:21 pm, DZ <13...@47921337.2019420451.13776.30507.18345>
wrote:
| Quote: | Taka <taka0...@gmail.com> wrote:
DZ wrote:
monty1...@lycos.com wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in Ray Peat's viewpoint, and find many of
his insights valuable, so I would appreciate it if anyone can
provide a link to any study that supports this statement regarding
cod liver oil and canine cancer mortality.
There's little doubt that such an experiment would yield such results
...
I'm an independent scholar
It seems that you don't have the refercence. A scholar studying a
problem would ask Ray Peat for the reference to the study. Why don't
you? After all, you repeatedly refer to this study.
Once I tried to track down that study and ended up with some old
reference without abstract or full text and it was some sort of a
meeting/party speech record only.
Actually, I have a full text, scanned copy of this speech
(by Sinclair). There is no mentioning of dogs in it.
|
Could you possibly OCR and post it?
There are many Sinclair's papers from the seventies dealing with EFAs
and EFAD (e.g. PMID: 1186900) without abstracts. I think it was among
them but I don't have the time to do an extensive search right now. I
think Ray Peat is answering questions by e-mail so we may ask him
directly? Also here is a more extensive reference list from his site
(he should be really putting the reference numbers next to his claims
in the text ...):
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration.shtml
Taka |
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Wanderer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 01:19:20 -0500, Taka wrote
(in article
<df241323-1f1d-4406-bb81-f5f0aa7ae07c@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>):
| Quote: |
Could you possibly OCR and post it?
There are many Sinclair's papers from the seventies dealing with EFAs
and EFAD (e.g. PMID: 1186900) without abstracts. I think it was among
them but I don't have the time to do an extensive search right now. I
think Ray Peat is answering questions by e-mail so we may ask him
directly? Also here is a more extensive reference list from his site
(he should be really putting the reference numbers next to his claims
in the text ...):
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration.shtml
Taka
|
This is essentially the same claim I originally questioned, with the added
information that the study was performed in the late 1940s, and an additional
suggestion that the study led to the "decreased use of cod liver oil":
"Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was recommended as a
vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin A, and later as a source
of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s, experimenters used it as the main
fat in dogs¹ diet, and found that they all died from cancer, while the dogs
on a standard diet had only a 5% cancer mortality. That sort of information,
and the availability of synthetic vitamins, led to the decreased use of cod
liver oil."
I actually did request a source for this information through Ray Peat's Web
site and received a reply that Mr. Peat was out of the country and did not
have access to his archives. The reply suggested that I search online and
that I would find many studies supporting this conclusion of cod liver oil
causing 100% cancer mortality in dogs. I have searched using every
combination of words I can think of, and have found reference to no such
studies. In fact, most of the studies that do come up seem to involve the
beneficial effects of cod liver oil for dogs.
Nevertheless, I remain open-minded about this. If anyone can produce the
study that Mr. Peat refers to, I would be most appreciative. Thanks to all
who have contributed their insights on this topic.
Wanderer |
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DZ
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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Wanderer <jake_fantom@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | This is essentially the same claim I originally questioned, with the added
information that the study was performed in the late 1940s, and an additional
suggestion that the study led to the "decreased use of cod liver oil":
"Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was
recommended as a vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin
A, and later as a source of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s,
experimenters used it as the main fat in dogs¹ diet, and found that
they all died from cancer, while the dogs on a standard diet had
only a 5% cancer mortality.
|
Even producers of fish oild supplements write on the bottle something
like a 1 g as a recommended dose. How do we go from 10 cal to the main
source of fat? Perhaps majority of "supplements" would be harmful if
they constituted a major part of the diet. The leap of faith is this:
if EFA increase free radical formation, then they must be non-essential
and should be avoided altogether. |
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Taka
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil Poisonous? |
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On Mar 2, 2:04 am, Wanderer <jake_fan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 01:19:20 -0500, Taka wrote
(in article
df241323-1f1d-4406-bb81-f5f0aa7ae...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>):
Could you possibly OCR and post it?
There are many Sinclair's papers from the seventies dealing with EFAs
and EFAD (e.g. PMID: 1186900) without abstracts. I think it was among
them but I don't have the time to do an extensive search right now. I
think Ray Peat is answering questions by e-mail so we may ask him
directly? Also here is a more extensive reference list from his site
(he should be really putting the reference numbers next to his claims
in the text ...):
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration.shtml
Taka
This is essentially the same claim I originally questioned, with the added
information that the study was performed in the late 1940s, and an additional
suggestion that the study led to the "decreased use of cod liver oil":
"Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was recommended as a
vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin A, and later as a source
of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s, experimenters used it as the main
fat in dogs¹ diet, and found that they all died from cancer, while the dogs
on a standard diet had only a 5% cancer mortality. That sort of information,
and the availability of synthetic vitamins, led to the decreased use of cod
liver oil."
I actually did request a source for this information through Ray Peat's Web
site and received a reply that Mr. Peat was out of the country and did not
have access to his archives. The reply suggested that I search online and
that I would find many studies supporting this conclusion of cod liver oil
causing 100% cancer mortality in dogs. I have searched using every
combination of words I can think of, and have found reference to no such
studies.
|
Same here ... One problem is that the articles as old as 1940 are not
listed in PubMed. There are newer papers with indirect evidence but
that is not enough especially when the review articles about the
benefits of Omega-3 overcrowd them. The people who have access to the
old publications and books like Monty or Ray Peat should at least show
clear citations on their sites ...
One thing I have learned the hard way though is to keep the PUFAs as
low as possible (the "adverse" effects of EFAD are hard to see in
adult people anyway). I have not seen any benefits from small doses
of fish or borage oil so supplementing is just wasting money. I
remember a study in Medline demonstrating that to see some therapeutic
antiinflammatory effects you need to take Omega-3's in quite large
doses which are definitely dangerous. Remember that any chemotherapy
is not affecting only the bad cells but also the good stem cells which
you need for long term body maintenance.
Taka
| Quote: | In fact, most of the studies that do come up seem to involve the
beneficial effects of cod liver oil for dogs.
Nevertheless, I remain open-minded about this. If anyone can produce the
study that Mr. Peat refers to, I would be most appreciative. Thanks to all
who have contributed their insights on this topic.
Wanderer |
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