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Prisoner at War
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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I've been ruminating, off and on, with increasing frequency, for
years, over switching to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovarian).
I'm still thinking about it, and it's 50/50 between health benefits
and animal rights...so can someone explain why, um, "whole-hog" vegan
instead of simply lacto-ovo vegetarian?? I mean, I was never sure how
animals would be harmed by us using their surplus milk and
unfertilized eggs (assuming they are free-range, etc.), but now I've
just found out that eggs and dairy is supposed to be *harmful* to us
somehow???
I still don't have a lot of motivation to become either vegetarian or
vegan just yet -- my vanity as a bodybuilding weight-lifter precludes
it, I'm afraid, though there are a few famous vegetarian or vegan
bodybuilders and strength athletes -- but I will be ready soon to give
at least a vegetarian diet a 30-day "shareware" trial, just to really
see what it's like (I've done a day or two at a time already, but
haven't noticed much of a change besides hunger sometimes!)....
I once thought that I would defer any vegetarian or vegan switch until
old age when bodybuilding and that kind of strength won't matter, but
God damn it's really disgusting how cattle, livestock, and seafood are
raised these days -- no, "raised" is too generous a term: they're
practically manufactured!
Forget about the acts of sheer cruelty we see on the evening news, bad
as that is: just the whole cooped up experience of being raised in a
cage, living with no space to turn around, is fucking sick!! I really
try not to think about it, but in trying to live a conscious life of
awareness and self-realization, there's no way but to also live
conscientiously, for all sentient beings...hard-scrabbled bastard that
I am, it's the least I can do to not put such food in my mouth, to
fuel my lifts at the gym on the lifelong suffering of animals -- never
mind all the health reasons!
So anyway, just thinking out loud again on usenet...any relevant
advice appreciated. My fear as a lifter is that I would somehow lose
muscle, or not gain, or gain as much or as fast...is that a valid
concern at all? It won't stop me from doing at least a vegetarian
diet in another year or two, but I'm curious about any such
consequences.
My plan is to do 30-day vegetarian trials, just to "acclimate"
myself...though many claim to feel so good that doing another 30 days,
then another, then another, just becomes second nature! But why all-
out vegan? What's wrong with lacto-ovo?
And, just for curiosity's sake...is it true that growing kids simply
cannot realize their full physical potential on a vegetarian and/or
vegan diet??
TIA! |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:823efdd7-d8e6-489d-95a6-42e345875013@28g2000hsw.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
I've been ruminating, off and on, with increasing frequency, for
years, over switching to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovarian).
I'm still thinking about it, and it's 50/50 between health benefits
and animal rights...so can someone explain why, um, "whole-hog" vegan
instead of simply lacto-ovo vegetarian?? I mean, I was never sure how
animals would be harmed by us using their surplus milk and
unfertilized eggs (assuming they are free-range, etc.), but now I've
just found out that eggs and dairy is supposed to be *harmful* to us
somehow???
I still don't have a lot of motivation to become either vegetarian or
vegan just yet -- my vanity as a bodybuilding weight-lifter precludes
it, I'm afraid, though there are a few famous vegetarian or vegan
bodybuilders and strength athletes -- but I will be ready soon to give
at least a vegetarian diet a 30-day "shareware" trial, just to really
see what it's like (I've done a day or two at a time already, but
haven't noticed much of a change besides hunger sometimes!)....
I once thought that I would defer any vegetarian or vegan switch until
old age when bodybuilding and that kind of strength won't matter, but
God damn it's really disgusting how cattle, livestock, and seafood are
raised these days -- no, "raised" is too generous a term: they're
practically manufactured!
Forget about the acts of sheer cruelty we see on the evening news, bad
as that is: just the whole cooped up experience of being raised in a
cage, living with no space to turn around, is fucking sick!! I really
try not to think about it, but in trying to live a conscious life of
awareness and self-realization, there's no way but to also live
conscientiously, for all sentient beings...hard-scrabbled bastard that
I am, it's the least I can do to not put such food in my mouth, to
fuel my lifts at the gym on the lifelong suffering of animals -- never
mind all the health reasons!
So anyway, just thinking out loud again on usenet...any relevant
advice appreciated. My fear as a lifter is that I would somehow lose
muscle, or not gain, or gain as much or as fast...is that a valid
concern at all? It won't stop me from doing at least a vegetarian
diet in another year or two, but I'm curious about any such
consequences.
My plan is to do 30-day vegetarian trials, just to "acclimate"
myself...though many claim to feel so good that doing another 30 days,
then another, then another, just becomes second nature! But why all-
out vegan? What's wrong with lacto-ovo?
And, just for curiosity's sake...is it true that growing kids simply
cannot realize their full physical potential on a vegetarian and/or
vegan diet??
TIA!
|
animals have no rights |
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Mr. Smartypants
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 3:06 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I've been ruminating, off and on, with increasing frequency, for
years, over switching to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovarian).
I'm still thinking about it, and it's 50/50 between health benefits
and animal rights...so can someone explain why, um, "whole-hog" vegan
instead of simply lacto-ovo vegetarian?? I mean, I was never sure how
animals would be harmed by us using their surplus milk and
unfertilized eggs (assuming they are free-range, etc.), but now I've
just found out that eggs and dairy is supposed to be *harmful* to us
somehow???
I still don't have a lot of motivation to become either vegetarian or
vegan just yet -- my vanity as a bodybuilding weight-lifter precludes
it, I'm afraid, though there are a few famous vegetarian or vegan
bodybuilders and strength athletes -- but I will be ready soon to give
at least a vegetarian diet a 30-day "shareware" trial, just to really
see what it's like (I've done a day or two at a time already, but
haven't noticed much of a change besides hunger sometimes!)....
I once thought that I would defer any vegetarian or vegan switch until
old age when bodybuilding and that kind of strength won't matter, but
God damn it's really disgusting how cattle, livestock, and seafood are
raised these days -- no, "raised" is too generous a term: they're
practically manufactured!
Forget about the acts of sheer cruelty we see on the evening news, bad
as that is: just the whole cooped up experience of being raised in a
cage, living with no space to turn around, is fucking sick!! I really
try not to think about it, but in trying to live a conscious life of
awareness and self-realization, there's no way but to also live
conscientiously, for all sentient beings...hard-scrabbled bastard that
I am, it's the least I can do to not put such food in my mouth, to
fuel my lifts at the gym on the lifelong suffering of animals -- never
mind all the health reasons!
So anyway, just thinking out loud again on usenet...any relevant
advice appreciated. My fear as a lifter is that I would somehow lose
muscle, or not gain, or gain as much or as fast...is that a valid
concern at all? It won't stop me from doing at least a vegetarian
diet in another year or two, but I'm curious about any such
consequences.
My plan is to do 30-day vegetarian trials, just to "acclimate"
myself...though many claim to feel so good that doing another 30 days,
then another, then another, just becomes second nature! But why all-
out vegan? What's wrong with lacto-ovo?
And, just for curiosity's sake...is it true that growing kids simply
cannot realize their full physical potential on a vegetarian and/or
vegan diet??
TIA!
|
Y'know...if you need some one to explain it to you, you probably don't
have the brain power to understand it anyway. |
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Doug Freese
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
| Quote: |
animals have no rights
|
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
animal ethics on the carbon list I guess we are not going to meet a
barbeque and swap chicken wing recipes.
A happy omnivore.
-D |
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Elflord
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On 2008-02-16, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | So anyway, just thinking out loud again on usenet...any relevant
advice appreciated. My fear as a lifter is that I would somehow lose
muscle, or not gain, or gain as much or as fast...is that a valid
concern at all? It won't stop me from doing at least a vegetarian
diet in another year or two, but I'm curious about any such
consequences.
|
I've done the lifting thing both while veg and while non-veg (wasn't that
good at lifting either way though I did deadlift more than you  . I don't
think you'll suddenly atrophy.
| Quote: | My plan is to do 30-day vegetarian trials, just to "acclimate"
myself...though many claim to feel so good that doing another 30 days,
then another, then another, just becomes second nature! But why all-
out vegan? What's wrong with lacto-ovo?
|
Start with ovo-lacto. That way, you can still take whey protein.
Would suggest surviving on that for a while before trying all-out vegan
(which is much harder to pull off)
Cheers,
--
Elflord |
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Elflord
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On 2008-02-16, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
animals have no rights
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
|
I say there is no credible evidence that plants have feelings.
Cheers,
--
Elflord |
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Bartleby
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 5:06 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I've been ruminating, off and on, with increasing frequency, for
years, over switching to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovarian).
I'm still thinking about it, and it's 50/50 between health benefits
and animal rights...so can someone explain why, um, "whole-hog" vegan
instead of simply lacto-ovo vegetarian?? I mean, I was never sure how
animals would be harmed by us using their surplus milk and
unfertilized eggs (assuming they are free-range, etc.), but now I've
just found out that eggs and dairy is supposed to be *harmful* to us
somehow???
I still don't have a lot of motivation to become either vegetarian or
vegan just yet -- my vanity as a bodybuilding weight-lifter precludes
it, I'm afraid, though there are a few famous vegetarian or vegan
bodybuilders and strength athletes -- but I will be ready soon to give
at least a vegetarian diet a 30-day "shareware" trial, just to really
see what it's like (I've done a day or two at a time already, but
haven't noticed much of a change besides hunger sometimes!)....
I once thought that I would defer any vegetarian or vegan switch until
old age when bodybuilding and that kind of strength won't matter, but
God damn it's really disgusting how cattle, livestock, and seafood are
raised these days -- no, "raised" is too generous a term: they're
practically manufactured!
Forget about the acts of sheer cruelty we see on the evening news, bad
as that is: just the whole cooped up experience of being raised in a
cage, living with no space to turn around, is fucking sick!! I really
try not to think about it, but in trying to live a conscious life of
awareness and self-realization, there's no way but to also live
conscientiously, for all sentient beings...hard-scrabbled bastard that
I am, it's the least I can do to not put such food in my mouth, to
fuel my lifts at the gym on the lifelong suffering of animals -- never
mind all the health reasons!
So anyway, just thinking out loud again on usenet...any relevant
advice appreciated. My fear as a lifter is that I would somehow lose
muscle, or not gain, or gain as much or as fast...is that a valid
concern at all? It won't stop me from doing at least a vegetarian
diet in another year or two, but I'm curious about any such
consequences.
My plan is to do 30-day vegetarian trials, just to "acclimate"
myself...though many claim to feel so good that doing another 30 days,
then another, then another, just becomes second nature! But why all-
out vegan? What's wrong with lacto-ovo?
And, just for curiosity's sake...is it true that growing kids simply
cannot realize their full physical potential on a vegetarian and/or
vegan diet??
TIA!
|
I'm not a vegetarian, but I share some of your thoughts and feelings.
You might want to follow elflord's advice and do the lacto-ovo thing
for a while.
Vegan is harder.
Remember when eating your veggies that Mikie likes it!
http://www.naturalphysiques.com/cms/index.php?itemid=166
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler21.htm |
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Cheese Wheels
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:46:17 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse@aol.com>
wrote this stuff here :
| Quote: | On 2008-02-16, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
animals have no rights
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
I say there is no credible evidence that plants have feelings.
Cheers,
|
ANIMALS , in the wild, eat other animals though.
It is natural and normal to eat meat as a human being. |
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Prisoner at War
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 11:53 am, Cheese Wheels <obesity2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:46:17 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <ab...@aol.com
wrote this stuff here :
On 2008-02-16, Doug Freese <dfre...@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
"David" <forgot...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
animals have no rights
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
I say there is no credible evidence that plants have feelings.
Cheers,
ANIMALS , in the wild, eat other animals though.
It is natural and normal to eat meat as a human being.
|
Animals in the wild have a *life*...that was the point of my concern
over the ethics of it all.
And now, it's even an environmental problem, all the shit generated!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=the+meat+guzzler&st=nyt&oref=slogin
EXCERPTS
Like oil, meat is subsidized by the federal government. Like oil, meat
is subject to accelerating demand as nations become wealthier, and
this, in turn, sends prices higher. Finally -- like oil -- meat is
something people are encouraged to consume less of, as the toll
exacted by industrial production increases, and becomes increasingly
visible.
....
Grain, meat and even energy are roped together in a way that could
have dire results. More meat means a corresponding increase in demand
for feed, especially corn and soy, which some experts say will
contribute to higher prices.
....
Because the stomachs of cattle are meant to digest grass, not grain,
cattle raised industrially thrive only in the sense that they gain
weight quickly. This diet made it possible to remove cattle from their
natural environment and encourage the efficiency of mass confinement
and slaughter. But it causes enough health problems that
administration of antibiotics is routine, so much so that it can
result in antibiotic-resistant bacteria that threaten the usefulness
of medicines that treat people.
Those grain-fed animals, in turn, are contributing to health problems
among the world's wealthier citizens -- heart disease, some types of
cancer, diabetes. The argument that meat provides useful protein makes
sense, if the quantities are small. But the "you gotta eat meat" claim
collapses at American levels. Even if the amount of meat we eat
weren't harmful, it's way more than enough.
....
Longer term, it no longer seems lunacy to believe in the possibility
of "meat without feet" -- meat produced in vitro, by growing animal
cells in a super-rich nutrient environment before being further
manipulated into burgers and steaks.
Another suggestion is a return to grazing beef, a very real
alternative as long as you accept the psychologically difficult and
politically unpopular notion of eating less of it. That's because
grazing could never produce as many cattle as feedlots do. Still, said
Michael Pollan, author of the recent book "In Defense of Food," "In
places where you can't grow grain, fattening cows on grass is always
going to make more sense."
But pigs and chickens, which convert grain to meat far more
efficiently than beef, are increasingly the meats of choice for
producers, accounting for 70 percent of total meat production, with
industrialized systems producing half that pork and three-quarters of
the chicken.
Once, these animals were raised locally (even many New Yorkers
remember the pigs of Secaucus), reducing transportation costs and
allowing their manure to be spread on nearby fields. Now hog
production facilities that resemble prisons more than farms are
hundreds of miles from major population centers, and their manure
"lagoons" pollute streams and groundwater. (In Iowa alone, hog
factories and farms produce more than 50 million tons of excrement
annually. |
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Prisoner at War
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 9:35 am, Elflord <ab...@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I've done the lifting thing both while veg and while non-veg (wasn't that
good at lifting either way though I did deadlift more than you . I don't
think you'll suddenly atrophy.
|
Hehe...I'm positively pissed that my deadlifts and squats are so
puny...I'm still in consultation with that laser spinal surgery place
in FL...sigh....
| Quote: | Start with ovo-lacto. That way, you can still take whey protein.
|
I've bought some soy isolate now and will be trying that out soon.
It's not too much more expensive, though I have no problems with whey.
| Quote: | Would suggest surviving on that for a while before trying all-out vegan
(which is much harder to pull off)
|
So you say you've "done" this thing...sounds like you gave it up?? Or
maybe it was the weight-lifting you gave up?
I'm looking forward to my experiment...I'll be living my usual
lifestyle, especially WRT weights and running, but doing lacto-ovarian
for thirty days...I have an initial acclimatization phase where I
reduce my intake of meat each day until I'm having it only once a
week, while substituting eggs, cheeses, and tofu, along with protein
powders (not just with my workouts anymore)...once that's settled, the
experiment will begin with the first week of absolutely no meat at
all, which will probably be in early March....
| Quote: | Cheers,
--
Elflord |
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Prisoner at War
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 10:44 am, Bartleby <arroy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, man; good to see a fellow traveler among fellow lifters!
I've already started cutting back on meat consumption, and I expect to
have eased into a fully lacto-ovo diet by early March...I will keep up
my usual volume and intensity of weight-lifting and report back to the
group sometime in April! I often hear of runners gaining more energy
than ever while on vegetarian and vegan diets, but maybe that's just
'cause those guys and gals lose weight and muscle mass! What would be
interesting is to see if that results for a weight-lifter...thirty
days should be enough time to determine that, I hope.... |
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Elflord
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On 2008-02-16, Cheese Wheels <obesity2008@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:46:17 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse@aol.com
wrote this stuff here :
On 2008-02-16, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
animals have no rights
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
I say there is no credible evidence that plants have feelings.
ANIMALS , in the wild, eat other animals though.
It is natural and normal to eat meat as a human being.
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Cheers,
--
Elflord |
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Elflord
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On 2008-02-16, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | So you say you've "done" this thing...sounds like you gave it up?? Or
maybe it was the weight-lifting you gave up?
|
I did some weight lifting before I started with the veg diet, then stopped
for a while, then started again after being on the veg diet. I stopped lifting
eventually because I was doing much better at running.
Cheers,
--
Elflord |
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Mr-Natural-Health
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
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On Feb 16, 5:06 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I've been ruminating, off and on, with increasing frequency, for
years, over switching to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovarian).
I'm still thinking about it, and it's 50/50 between health benefits
and animal rights...so can someone explain why, um, "whole-hog" vegan
instead of simply lacto-ovo vegetarian?? I mean, I was never sure how
animals would be harmed by us using their surplus milk and
unfertilized eggs (assuming they are free-range, etc.), but now I've
just found out that eggs and dairy is supposed to be *harmful* to us
somehow???
|
Way, way, way back in the pre-history of the smn newsgroup animal
rights wackjobs took control of this forum. Which resulted in a
movement to turn smn into a moderated newsgroup.
That never happened. And, animal rights wack-jobs are still nuts,
IMHO.
As michael savage wrote: "Liberalism is a form of mental illness."
http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/
You have to eat to live. And, that means animals have to die. Heck,
you cannot even walk with killing some type of life form.
Between me, and some animal it is going to be me every time. |
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Rudy Canoza
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian?? |
|
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Elflord wrote:
| Quote: | On 2008-02-16, Cheese Wheels <obesity2008@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:46:17 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse@aol.com
wrote this stuff here :
On 2008-02-16, Doug Freese <dfreese@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
"David" <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:47b6be4a$0$8437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
animals have no rights
And neither do plants. Whose says that plants don't have feelings. With
I say there is no credible evidence that plants have feelings.
ANIMALS , in the wild, eat other animals though.
It is natural and normal to eat meat as a human being.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
|
But this sword cuts two ways:
"Appeal to nature is a commonly seen fallacy of
relevance consisting of a claim that something is good
or right because it is natural, or that something is
bad or wrong because it is unnatural. "
Very often in these newsgroups, "vegans" and other
breeds of vegetarian try to bolster their position by
claiming that meat eating is "unnatural" for humans.
First of all, they're wrong: eating meat is completely
natural for humans. Humans evolved as a meat eating
species. Secondly, their claim, which is wrong, would
do nothing to support their prior claim that eating
meat is wrong if done by humans.
Humans and their predecessor hominid species naturally
ate meat before the development of morality. "vegans"
are faced with the task of showing how the development
of morality somehow invalidated a biologically natural
function of eating meat. They've never been able to do it. |
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